Please don't try to start voting yet

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Please don't try to start voting yet

Matt S Trout-2
Since, as Andy Beverley pointed out, a straight A/B vote is the most
effective way to provide a clear resolution, please do add comments and
thoughts to my proposal (and do the same for riba once he's able to figure
out his), but there's no point doing +1/-1 as yet.

Once we've seen and discussed both, *then* we can call the final vote.
Otherwise people are just going to feel railroaded again and that isn't to
anybody's advantage.

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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Andrew Beverley
On Mon, 7 Nov 2016 21:38:13 Matt S Trout <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Once we've seen and discussed both, *then* we can call the final vote.

Thanks MST, that makes much more sense, much appreciated.

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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Darren Duncan
In reply to this post by Matt S Trout-2
On 2016-11-07 1:38 PM, Matt S Trout wrote:
> Since, as Andy Beverley pointed out, a straight A/B vote is the most
> effective way to provide a clear resolution, please do add comments and
> thoughts to my proposal (and do the same for riba once he's able to figure
> out his), but there's no point doing +1/-1 as yet.
>
> Once we've seen and discussed both, *then* we can call the final vote.
> Otherwise people are just going to feel railroaded again and that isn't to
> anybody's advantage.

Here's an idea.  In the spirit of your proposal, how about when the discussion
seems to be over and it seems time to vote, either Matt or Peter would propose
that a vote occurs, with the VOTE email etc, and then the other one of those two
would second it if they agree, at which point the vote happens. -- Darren Duncan


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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Matt S Trout-2
On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 10:42:38PM -0800, Darren Duncan wrote:
> Here's an idea.  In the spirit of your proposal, how about when the
> discussion seems to be over and it seems time to vote, either Matt
> or Peter would propose that a vote occurs, with the VOTE email etc,
> and then the other one of those two would second it if they agree,
> at which point the vote happens. -- Darren Duncan

I absolutely agree that riba and I should both be happy the discussion is
complete before voting begins.

I feel like having the part where we both agree that we're happy being done
using something that looks a lot like my proposal would seem a little off.

I think the best thing is for me to announce "ready when you are" and him to
do the same, via whatever clear manner suits us, and then David Golden can
declare, in an email, linking to both of our emails, that the vote will open
in 24h unless riba or I objects, and send another email after 24h opening it
assuming there's no such objection.

Little bit clunky, but if we have another incident of people feeling
unexpectedly railroaded I'm going to yell DEMOCRACY! three times and throw
a chair, so I'd rather overcompensate in that regard.

Anybody (especially riba) got any objections to that as a plan?

--
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http://shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-trout/   http://twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/

Email me now on mst (at) shadowcat.co.uk and let's chat about how our CPAN
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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Darren Duncan
On 2016-11-08 1:05 PM, Matt S Trout wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 10:42:38PM -0800, Darren Duncan wrote:
>> Here's an idea.  In the spirit of your proposal, how about when the
>> discussion seems to be over and it seems time to vote, either Matt
>> or Peter would propose that a vote occurs, with the VOTE email etc,
>> and then the other one of those two would second it if they agree,
>> at which point the vote happens. -- Darren Duncan
>
> I absolutely agree that riba and I should both be happy the discussion is
> complete before voting begins.
>
> I feel like having the part where we both agree that we're happy being done
> using something that looks a lot like my proposal would seem a little off.
>
> I think the best thing is for me to announce "ready when you are" and him to
> do the same, via whatever clear manner suits us, and then David Golden can
> declare, in an email, linking to both of our emails, that the vote will open
> in 24h unless riba or I objects, and send another email after 24h opening it
> assuming there's no such objection.
>
> Little bit clunky, but if we have another incident of people feeling
> unexpectedly railroaded I'm going to yell DEMOCRACY! three times and throw
> a chair, so I'd rather overcompensate in that regard.
>
> Anybody (especially riba) got any objections to that as a plan?

Sounds good to me.  My main point was that you and Peter both publicly agree on
being ready for the vote to occur.  Having a third person such as David
arbitrate seems quite appropriate also. -- Darren Duncan


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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Darin McBride
In reply to this post by Matt S Trout-2
On Tuesday November 8 2016 9:05:30 PM Matt S Trout wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 10:42:38PM -0800, Darren Duncan wrote:
> > Here's an idea.  In the spirit of your proposal, how about when the
> > discussion seems to be over and it seems time to vote, either Matt
> > or Peter would propose that a vote occurs, with the VOTE email etc,
> > and then the other one of those two would second it if they agree,
> > at which point the vote happens. -- Darren Duncan
>
> I absolutely agree that riba and I should both be happy the discussion is
> complete before voting begins.
>
> I feel like having the part where we both agree that we're happy being done
> using something that looks a lot like my proposal would seem a little off.
>
> I think the best thing is for me to announce "ready when you are" and him to
> do the same, via whatever clear manner suits us, and then David Golden can
> declare, in an email, linking to both of our emails, that the vote will
> open in 24h unless riba or I objects, and send another email after 24h
> opening it assuming there's no such objection.
>
> Little bit clunky, but if we have another incident of people feeling
> unexpectedly railroaded I'm going to yell DEMOCRACY! three times and throw
> a chair, so I'd rather overcompensate in that regard.
>
> Anybody (especially riba) got any objections to that as a plan?

I'd +1 this, but that'd look like a vote and we're not voting yet.

(In fact, if I remember, I'd propose the same rule of thumb for voting here in
general - rather than making it a hard-and-fast 72hr wait, I'd suggest in
general, using an async communication method such as email, that the rule
should be more along the lines of "whenever the conversation has died down,
run its course, or stand at an impasse, or 72 hours, whichever is longer, the
proposer, or any VM, may call for a vote, itself seconded by any other person
among the proposer and VMs."  This is a bit looser than your proposal, but
also less formal, and I don't know about you guys, but most programmers I know
aren't that formal.)

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Re: Please don't try to start voting yet

Matt S Trout-2
On Tue, Nov 08, 2016 at 02:30:22PM -0700, Darin McBride wrote:
> (In fact, if I remember, I'd propose the same rule of thumb for voting here in
> general - rather than making it a hard-and-fast 72hr wait, I'd suggest in
> general, using an async communication method such as email, that the rule
> should be more along the lines of "whenever the conversation has died down,
> run its course, or stand at an impasse, or 72 hours, whichever is longer, the
> proposer, or any VM, may call for a vote, itself seconded by any other person
> among the proposer and VMs."  This is a bit looser than your proposal, but
> also less formal, and I don't know about you guys, but most programmers I know
> aren't that formal.)

I intentionally started off with a relatively formal version, with the
expectation that once we got a rhythm going we'd look at what could safely
be relaxed later on.

Also, I'm faintly concerned that "run its course" can make a vote take
indefinitely long, and what I'd -rather- do is establish a norm that we
let the discussion in the PROPOSAL thread run its course before starting
the VOTE thread, then the voting part is fixed (and people can -1 for "you
didn't let the conversation finish"). Also that way you don't run into
issues where people have different interpretations of "run its course" and
we end up in a meta-argument about that.

--
Matt S Trout - Shadowcat Systems - Perl consulting with a commit bit and a clue

http://shadowcat.co.uk/blog/matt-s-trout/   http://twitter.com/shadowcat_mst/

Email me now on mst (at) shadowcat.co.uk and let's chat about how our CPAN
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